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OrthodoxBluesFeb 10, 2009 5:09 AM GMT
I've heard wonderful things about the Kinder AFB+, but I seem to be a little resistant to buying one. I guess that it is the price. I'm wondering what else people use for feedback control. I've seen a number of units that were primarily designed for acoustic guitar. Anyone have any luck with anything besides Kinder, and have you compared them directly?
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Never used an AFB+, but I can recommend the Behringer Shark. A very simple to use in-line notch filter. Also Behringer's rackmount Feedback Destroyer is very useful in PA situations.
The old Rocktron MicroHush pedals work great for killing feedback. They also eliminate amp hum miraculously. Mark Wenner told me about the pedals years ago, when you could still find them cheap on eBay. I bought three for $25 apiece. Now they go for ridiculous sums.
Rocktron still makes a Hush pedal, which may or may not work like the old models, depending on whom you ask. The new ones are certainly built more ruggedly than the old MicroHush pedals. I'd suggest picking one of those up off eBay to see if it serves your needs. Here's a search link to start you on your way.
AFB rules. Call John Kinder on the phone for the best results in getting one. They improve tone and dramatically reduce feedback with tons more volume.
On a seperate note with or without the pedal when your setting your amp dials turn the volume up to the feed back level than from zero on each knob graully adding treble mid, bass etc...you will find that this gets you louder without feedback and that bass, mid, and treble are actually bi products of VOLUME itself...additionally you will find the opposite is true...If you need more "Tone" at lower volume turn the volume down and the tone controls up...the volume and tone controls can work both with and against it...
I found the Sabine Solo 820 series, harmonica mics are mentioned specifically. Anyone try one of these?
Brutus, the MicroHush sounds interesting. I couldn't find one for sale. How ridiculously high in price are they now?
They rarely show up for sale anymore--the people who have them tend to hoard them. My best advice is to keep watching eBay. I think the last time I saw one show up it went for close to $200. If you're going to spend that much on an old pedal, you may as well buy the Kinder AFB.
I have one of the new blue Hush pedals. It works well, people say it sucks tone, but I haven't noticed anything. I think a lot of negativity about this pedal has come from people who don't read the instructions properly, to be effective you just have to make sure it's the last thing in your signal chain - not rocket science. I think paid about £35 new.
One of the pedals at lonewolfblues.com is supposed to help with feedback....half the cost of a Kinder. I dig the Kinder, but if it ever broke, I'd be screwed. Depending on the rig, an eq like the MXR ten band works well too. That's if the amp is fairly harp friendly, but needs a little more volume.
The Kinder rocks every amp I own. Email me at firstname.lastname@example.org and I can send you an mp3 demo of the pedal.
I found on youtube one intersting video, feedback killer without power suply, just a filter?
I have a similar (DIY) thing, works fine with feedback but cuts the high notes if you turn the knob all the way up.
I wrote to the email address about the device on YouTube, we'll see what they say. Did you make the device you use, or find it somewhere?
I found a blog post by Rick Davis that reported significant tone loss with a Sabine 620, which looks rather similar to the Sabine 820 which caught my eye. I am starting to believe that all roads lead to Kinder!
Well most harp players swear by the Kinder AFB.
Personally I never really have feedback problems often so I don't use anything. But if I was in the market for one I'd get the Kinder over everything else.
It's quite a bit more expensive than any of the competition, but it was originally designed for Rod Piazza by John Kinder. Now Rod Piazza knows a thing or two about tone and amplified playing!
He uses the Kinder HarpKing amps (again designed for him) which have the AFB built in. But when he's on the road he uses the AFB to plug into whatever amp is available to make it useable for his needs.
I have a HarpKing now, but before I saved gig money for 2 years, I used a DOD 7 band EQ pedal with good results. The idea is to EQ out the feedback in any given room. This is not a GREAT solution, but it's better than nothing and it won't break the bank.
One amp builder guy from Croatia is got the shematic from guy that made A.F. Killer, so he made me one but he seald the parts inside on creator demand so it can't been cloned.
Amazing that you mentioned a seven band EQ . I just saw an inexpensive used one on a guitar forum, and was thinking about it, although I'm pretty sure a Kinder is in my future!
The MXR 10 band EQ is a very useful device for playing harp into a guitar amp. Besides being able to adjust frequencies that the tone controls on the amp don't cover (typically low mids at 250 hz to fatten the tone) and cutting frequencies that feedback, the box has gain and volume controls as well. Simply attenuating the gain of the mic signal can sometimes control feedback. The gain and volume controls sliders on the MXR can do that. They are like pre and post controls on a preamp.
Now, depending on where you set the volume and gain in relation to each other you can also alter the tonal characteristics of the signal. More gain and less volume will typically be more overdriven or "dirty." Less gain and more volume will typically be cleaner. But if you increase gain in the right proportion to volume, you can also get the signal to sound "bigger" or more sensitive at the mic.
I'm planning to get a Kinder AFB+ to use with my tube amps. But the MXR 10 band equalizer is a very practical, versatile and cost effective device.
From what I've read, most feedback limiters are equalization devices in the sense that they lower the band that has the feedback. If they are able to narrow just the part that is giving you the feedback, then you sense less of a tone loss than if they take out a big swath. Now, I'm not sure of what I've just written, and my electronics knowledge is such that I don't know a resistor from a capacitor.
The guy associated with the Feedback Killer wrote back to me, and was pleasant, but he didn't list how to buy one. It is on eBay, of course, and is going for about $140.
I think I'm waiting to pay other things and then buy the Kinder, but there is a Sabine I might try if it really is inexpensive.
The MXR is pretty sweet. It is one of only two pieces of gear I ever regret selling.
There was a Kinder AFB on ebay that sold yesterday for more than a new one costs!
I guess some folks just have money to waste!
Davey G. here reminded me of the equalization aspect of feedback control. I decided to try again with my Akai G-Drive, a fairly rare guitar overdrive that has equalization both before and after the drive. By dialing down highs and mids, boosting bass, and keeping the drive level low to moderate, I obtained a nice sound and no feedback with my hi-z mics. Thanks, Davey! This pedal is now the property of my harps. My guitar will have to make do with the other overdrives I have.
I use to hate pedals until i tried Lonewolfs pedals. Now i have all of them ;) I am the inventor of the no-power pedal they sell on the tube but give it away cause i dont like it. Its just a adjustable low pass filter. Try lonewolf Harp Octave. It give you better punch and drive one octave up and one down. The mic dont take those low and hi frequenses and you get more volume and less feedback and a outrageous fat sound. i have just begin to check out the new Harp attack tube preamp pedal for harps. its very promising. I have tried it as a amp directly in to a sound table and a recorder and found i have a small amp in pocketsize. I have tried it in a amp, but not in a live situation. And icant say anything about how it works then but i believe its just as good as his other gear. I'll be in touch.
It is very easy to go from no pedals to being a pedal addict! Most of mine are for guitar, but the harps may want equal time.
Boy, someone just got a steal on a Microhush--six bids, with a winning bid of $42.56. It pays to keep your eyes open and be patient.
Link to the completed eBay auction....
Sorry--posted the wrong link (any idea when we'll be able to edit posts, Brady?)
Here's the correct link....
Wow! In this economy, there have been some deals, even on eBay. I suppose it is worthwhile to have some searches open on eBay to be notified of items of interest.
Why Kinder AFB+ is to expensive and hard to buy. I'm here in russia now can't find any possibilities to buy. Mayby anyone here have the schematics of afb+? Ш лтщц ыщьу ылшддув утпштуукыю
... I know some skilled engineers, which can make copy for me. Or is it against law?
I suspect Mr. Kinder might have a wee small issue with someone pirating his copyrighted designs. Then again, he might welcome the idea if he could get a cut of the royalties. Why don't you ask him directly?
Does anyone know the principle of Kinder?Does it work with phase? Or is it notch filter with feedback detector?
i just got a Kinder. From what John Kinder told me it works on even and odd order harmonics. TheAFB knob adds even order harmonic distortion and the UB knob adds odd order harmonic distortion. It's pretty effective atcontrollingfeedback, but it DOES color the tone.
i like a fairly clean set up, and i do not like what the Kinder does to the tone, so I have to be very careful with the settings to minimize that. Players that prefer a crunchy ordistortedtone would probably like it better. But it works.
John told me the device is essentially a reverse sustain pedal capable of focussing on blanket high and low frequencies. That makes seance to me. especially if you have ever used an auto wah pedal which pulls volume awyt from the note at it's peak....YOU CAN PLA LOUD!!! of course you have the "WAH" sound so reverse sustain makes seance.
I video taped a Verbzilla demo, but have to redo it...the effect was a little low in the mix.
There's a guy near me who (I think) is selling me a 31 band equalizer for a fairly small sum. I'm going to try it out.
Sometimes I use Rocktron Hush. It's noise gate but it's works as antifeedback also.
Chris Michalek told me about this model. I didn't try others, but this one is good for my gear.
Thanks to Bart L and Chris M. I just bought rocktron hush for me too. In combination with lonewolf delay, EQ and BBE sonic stomp it helps a lot with feedback killing. It's not perfect but noticeable good. Only issue it seems that it reduce amount of feedback, but if feedback occurs it seems that it less controllable than without rocktron. Does anyone here have such an experience?
BTW, yes it change tone a little, but surprisingly I like the changes it makes, I can't describe them, some little tone shifting.
Is John Kinder a Serious guy ???
I've send him a payment for an AFB the 14th of december, and I still got no news from him, no reply to my mails ???
I live in Belgium and it's not possible for me to give him a call, and my english is too poor to understand anything in a live conversation anyway. ;-)
If one of you can help me, it would be great.
I'm Pascal Lemaire
my adress is
363 rue Haute , 5300 Vezin, Belgium
my mail is
Thanks for reading me
I think AFB is uncomonly good. But it's pricey. It needs 2 batteries and it don't accept AC adaptor, it has no on/off switch. It's hard to get, as John Kinder don't answer e-mails, don't accept PayPal or credit cards. Does it really worth this troubles?
Still hope someone will make a copy with some upgrades for reasonable price.
I use a good amp, a good mic, and a volume control at the mic.
Note that if you use effects pedals, particularly ones that add any "overdrive" then feedback is a real problem, but straight into a good amp, set up for harp, it should NOT be. My Sonny Jr amps have wonderful volume before feedback.
I've heard great things about the AFB but I've also heard people say they don't like the way it alters their tone. More importantly, I tried to communicate with John about buying one and he never answered my emails. Sorry - I just won't do business with someone who communicates so poorly and whose lead times are that long. Maybe its just me, but I try to answer every email in under 24 hours, and I turn my orders around in days, not weeks. I expect the same from others.
BlowsMeAway Productions Bluestate Bluestate on CDBaby Bluestate on iTunes
I'm having great results with the Lone Wolf Harp Tone Plus that I bought from Harpaholic. For low volume stuff, watching the volume and mic position is all that I need, even with a hot mic and amos that haven't been set up for harp because I play guitar, too.
If John Kinder is so old it's possiple than he goes out of buisiness soon. It really necessary to do the reverse engineering and copy AFB . Let it costs the same price, but it have to be accessible much easier than now. It also seems that it can cost less than $350 as it's just analog box. I think it also needs some improvements (AC adaptor, on/off switch).
So why it's still so hard to get and so pricey? If he had some young followers why they didn't upgrade website and why they didn't answer his emails?
So why not adding some on-off true bypass switch to stop drawing batteries and remove effect from tone? I'm using pedalboard and it's not comfortable to plug and unplug cable each time.
I didn't think John was an old man.
I hope the delay for ordering is just a normal thing, and now I just got to wait for a good news.
Thanks for your replies
Who says you can't find good deals on eBay any longer. Yeah, the "glory days" may be over, but if you keep watching patiently and are serious about bidding within your limits, you can still score big time. I just received another backup Microhush I found on eBay last week, for the princely sum of $15.50 $8 shipping. When I first saw it the high bid was at $12. I bid $30 max, figuring someone else would snatch it away from me within minutes. The next day, I checked--someone had bid it up to $15. The next day when the auction ended, it had gone up $0.50. Then the auction ended and it was mine. Score!
I've search ebayfor microhush 5-6 times, don't find one and buy new rocktron hush. It works for me, maybe not perfect but good. I think, I have keep trying find microhush to decide which is better. I’ll be glad if someone compare them face to face. It seems that it’s not too hard to copy microhush if it’s good or to mod hush for particular appearance (feedback destroying).
I agree about the way business and communications should be done. I got my Kalamazoo from Greg and he was professional and above-board. I would do business with him again and I recommend him hands-down. I also got my mic from him. I've never gotten feedback when using them. I also have a BBE Two-Timer and no feedback. I use the volume control on the mic.
abner (BluEyes, like other kinds of feedback)
Sorry for big letters in previous comments, it's the matter of copying text from windows notepad...
Do you play with drummer and overdriven electric guitars? I often has no problems with feedback ifWe have soundcheck as my band is not too loud (usually when we play jazz) and my bandmates usually ask me not to play too loud! However recent time I play with rock band, guitarist plugged to 4x12 stack, basist too and drummer was too loud. I hardly was heared over the band without feedback with my small 1x10 15W tube amp. After that set I decide to buy me some sort of antideedback to avoid that problems in fututre.
I've been meaning to try the BYOC (Build Your Own Clone) 10 band EQ for some time now. This pedal actually isn't a clone but a 10 band equalizer in a normal pedal sized box. Well, I waited too long and BYOC discontinued it and was out of stock of the kits. Axe and Ye Shall Receive, a guitar store that sells pre-built BYOC pedals, didn't have it listed in their site. BYOC recommended checking DeGier, their European distributor. I didn't see it listed there, but they had a list of European stores that carry the BYOC line. Moody Music in Sweden had it listed as being in stock, and didn't charge that much extra to assemble it. Americans are exempt from the VAT (tax), so my procrastination cost me only about twenty US dollars. I just hope that I don't get an e-mail in the next day or two saying that the site was wrong and they are out of stock, too.
Lone Wolf octave pedal will cut feedback, it will fatten your tone and give crunch on the start of each note you play. I set the blend control at 10 to 11 oclock and the volume control at 11 oclock which is about the same volume as your amp volume. The pedal has true bypass. I can turn my amp right up without feedback. I dont usually like using pedals as they cut into your tone, but I can say this pedal is awesome.
for me, those settings on the lone wolf octave effect are a bit high for the octave, it muddies up any chords when set very high. I like it just barely audible in the signal most of the time.
finally got my AFB today
it works really great, lot of volume, I can EQ my amp with no compromise, and havin' no feedback.
I can sit on my amp and play loud .
it's really amazing.
John is probably not a master in communication, but his product is the best.
That's pretty much my experience as well. It was frustrating waiting and trying to get some information about shipping time but after realizing that was common to everyone, I waited it out (what choice??) I'm glad I waited - it does what it said it would!!
Brutus, I just bought the lastest MicroHush from eBay. This one wasn't as inexpensive as yours ... $28 plus $10 for shipping, but I threw in an extra dollar for shipping here to Hawaii. So far, my various experiments have aided feedback, but not ever quite enough. If this one isn't the charm, I'm saving up for the Kinder unit.
Okay, no criticism for any of the other options, but for my set-up, which usually is a high output old Shure mic into a guitar amp that is not optimized for harp (I play guitar too), the Kinder AFB seems to be the thing. I only recently received mine, thanks to Todd G and the Classifieds, but even on an initial testing run, it worked far better than the Lone Wolf Harp Tone , an equalizer (BYOC brand), a Rocktron Micro Hush, or a LR Baggs Feedback Mater (which works great for its stated purpose of acoustic guitar feedback). The EQ is great for guitar tone, I can use the noise reduction of the Micro Hush when I run multiple guitar effects, etc., but I could have saved myself a good bunch of money if I bought the Kinder first!
Again, only initial testing, but I was able to dial in no feedback and great tone with a mic and amp that had tons of feedback before. I need to do more testing, but as of now, the Kinder deserves the hype and price.
I've done more testing with the Kinder unit. It is possible to overdo the settings and somewhat squelch the tone, but so far, at any given degree of gain, there is a setting that eliminates all feedback and seems to add to the tone. So far, my testing has been done with a 1949 Shure Green Bullet with its black label controlled reluctance element. This mic has a huge output, and is quite prone to feedback. I've been able to get no feedback at much higher gain than I previously accessed.
My last round of testing was with this mic and my friend's guitar amp, a Victoria 5112, which is a Tweed Champ circuit running a 12 inch speaker. Previously, this amp didn't compare favorably with my old Tweed Champ with guitar or harp, but we got a sweet, honking blues sound with no feedback and little tweaking.
The Kinder AFB sounds like the ultimate if you can get one. I have gone down the road of using a peavel classic 30 amp with jj valves and for my dirty sound I use a modded boss ds-1. I use a AKG d88s vocal mike, I have found this mike to be the best for getting max gain from amp before feedback. I have just added a boss ns-2 which has helped add a bit of compession and take out more feedback. I can use this rig with full band and amp on a stand/chair, or amp aimed right at my head with the use of fender tilt back legs and as long as I set my pedals right, feedback is not a problem. I've been working on eliminating feedback for about 15 years and this seems to be the best I can get. Unfortunatley I don't have the money for kinder AFB, NZ $$ would be around $700, and then there is getting it shipped etc, which is why I've gone down the road I have. Just a note, I swapped out the stock speaker to a weber silver bell and that has improved tone heaps and given me a much tighter bottom end and less shrill top end, it's only just broken in and geting better every time I use it. Hope this helps. Cheers from NZ.
That sounds like a good set-up. I'm sure that I could have decreased feedback if I chose to use a vocal mic, or swapped tubes, etc., but I just adore my vintage mics, and the one I like the best is the most prone to feedback. Then, I don't want to optimize any of my amps for harp, as I also play guitar. I guess it is a recipe for feedback disaster.
If you ever need more help with feedback, I'd recommend saving up for the Kinder unit. It simply is astounding how it can take my feedback-prone rig and dial the feedback out while dialing in a bit more tone.
In the meantime, enjoy your cool rig!
I'm a french blues harp player . I've ordered a AF Kinder box on August 2nd 2011 , paid it with a Western Union Money transfert and never receive anything since this date ... I've sent 4 emails, try to phone at Kinder's shop and I've never got any answer .
Generally, I'm not an un pleasant customer but it becomes really too long now . Would it be one of you (living in USA) who could help me ? That would be great .
my name is : Maurice Moitel
my address : La Baronnière, 49125 France
Best regards and keep on groovin'
Looking through this long topic, it sounds like it can take 4-6 weeks for one to be built, and apparently John Kinder is not known for quick e-mail answers. I hope that others here can add more information, because I was very lucky and bought mine here used some time ago.